For the first time since I've been blogging, someone's comments have spurred me to start a new thread of conversation. Even though we are in the middle of our book study, it seems very appropriate, in light of the last post to pick this one up. I have often been vocal about my questioning of the Sunday morning event that we have grown accustom to calling "church." This week, one of you (Anonymous) has brought up some interesting points. See comments from the U-Haul Post. I now want to open up our discussion to the rest of you to get some of your feedback.
I have been openly critical of the Sunday morning expression of the church, but I want to listen to those of you who may find greater fulfillment in that expression. Before I post my lengthy discourse on the subject, I want you to know that I am not an advocate for abandoning the Sunday morning expression. I do think it has a place, but I'm still struggling with what that place is. Church attendance at some churches grow, while others are dying off. Even the churches that are growing, seem to be growing from "transfer growth" more than anything else. Even those that don't find a place of complacency. They can come and sit and listen and leave without ever really allowing the Christ-life to affect any other area or their lives. This come-and-go Christianity is not what Jesus died for and it's not what I want to pursue. But, I want to hear from you first. Anonymous opened up this discussion and I'm glad for that.
My prayer tonight is that this be a God-honoring conversation. That means that honesty and truth must reign in a spirit of unity and love. Our goal is not to just rip the church, or to lavishly defend her, but to honestly look at our experiences to see if they have come through on their promises or if they are producing what God wants in each of us.
I've got a lot more, but let's start by taking some inventory on where we are in relation to our thoughts about Sundays.
Posts
10 comments:
I've been reading your blogs and the comments and I hate to say this but there seems to be a underlying feeling of superiority being evidenced on here. Its like you make fun of people who love the established church and its functions. The sad part is that some of you even hint that those people aren't spiritual or doing God's work.
Just because it is something that is established doesn't make it wrong guys.
Just a little food for thought.
Well, I for one am worn out by them (Sunday services). I recently stopped going because it was sucking the life out of me. It wasn't a place of being fed anymore, it was a place of religious expectation.
I am not talking about a bad church here either! I am talking about a very community minded, outward reaching body of believers, yet still the emphasis on DOING instead of BEING, the emphasis on the VISION instead of RELATIONSHIP leaves me cold and hungry for more.
More what? LOVE. Which unfortunately is not what we are known for these days, but are supposed to be...
Oh anonymous, if you only knew...I've deleted more posts than I've written. I am messed up in many ways. I am too critical at times and arrogant at others. No doubt. I am a struggler on this journey to BE the church.
With that, I have dedicated my life to seeing the Church become all God wants her to be, and not settle for anything less. By all indications, the church has fallen woefully short, on the whole, and I am just searching for new expressions that actually take us back to early, early forms of Christianity.
Your comments make me curious. Are you one who "love the established church and its functions"? If so, would you share with us some of the things that you love? In no way to I intend to make fun of you. I genuinely want to know what it is that benefits people in the "established church." It just might help us see from another perspective. Be a voice. Thanks for your comment.
I love the established idea of Sunday school for kids- I thrived on it myself, and I see my kids crave it now. I like the worship time- I am not a good singer, but I love to sing, and to do so in a group! I don't want to belittle the people who love the established church, but I want them to experience the stuff that happens outside of the building, too. I see it being an hour or two a week that people focus on, and then forget about the rest of the week. We go to a service every week- whether The Springs meets or not- so we obviously enjoy the weekly stuff too!
Brad,
I'm not sure why you have this desire to go back to the early early forms of Christianity. We live in a new and modern world--why not embarce the new changes.
People today may or may not be as committed as you would like but then you're not responsible for them. You are however responsible for your worship and Christian walk.
The things I like about the established church are:
1. Gathering with other believers.
2. Singing praise and worship.
3. Praying together.
4. Giving financially to the Lord and His Kingdom.
5. Hearing Biblical messages and teaching.
6. Seeing people get saved and discipled.
These are just a few of the things that I enjoy. I'm sorry you haven't discovered some level of joy in your church experience. Keep searching--I know the Lord will show you.
I have to chime in as someone who grew up with a very messed up view of faith. I didn't see God in my church experience much. It just seemed like a bunch of rules and as someone mentioned a lack of love.
This changed almost 14 years ago when my wife went to work for a wonderful dentist who along with his wife lived out their faith. It wasn't contrived or only for Sundays- they were real. This intrigued both of us- but we still resisted since we felt so much on the outside. They continued to invite us to events, services, and loved us unconditionally (they were Christ to us when we were still up in the air about church).
To make a long story short- we eventually returned to church and have been there since. We’ve struggled with some of the church stuff (over serving; lack of commitment to community- yes we’re not responsible for them but when you “do life” with others you’re giving a part of yourself away and when they don’t it leads to very shallow relationships; structure over relationships as a function of the church; and I’m sure if I wanted to dwell on them I could name hundreds)- but I think the experience I’ve had has only pushed me to want to make sure that the guy who’s out there like I was 14 years ago has a place to come (it might not be a formal Sunday service for some but there is a place for Christ in everyone’s life). I am indebted to Richard and Betty Schmidt for reaching out to my family even though we weren’t ready for church. It took 4 years for me to get there and formal church wouldn’t have drawn me then.
Anonymous,
I appreciate your honesty and applaud your passion for more traditional church. The Truth can be presented in many ways and I think we often condemn what we’re not comfortable with instead of rooting one another on in the quest to be more like Christ. It’s like the music we listen to (I like it loud and don’t connect the same way with old hymns that many do. That doesn’t make the hymns less important or impactful to me. You just won’t find many in my collection).
cubsfan,
Nice post there. I really don't have a passion for a more tradional church. I love the modern praise and worship music and I avoid legalism and posturing as much as I can.
I do think people will come to a Sunday morning church if the ultimate goal of the service is "worship." Personally, I don't think discipleship or Bible study is the ultimate goal of a worship service. It is there to the worship the Lord God.
I don't buy the theology that the church is broken and totally irrelevant. I think there are some good churches out there that are doing exactly what they are called to do. Just because something is different doesn't make it better.
I would simply say find the things that are Biblical and minister to you and your church and then stay with them.
Anonymous,
I don't think it matters much whether you "buy it" or not. And whether or not you think it is broken or working is not a point of theology, but seems to be an argument based on personal perspective/agenda.
The real question revolves around how we can reach out to those who are seeking. How we can make ourselves relevant to those around us so we can share the good news of Jesus Christ.
I think the numbers speak for themselves. A quote from Barna Group (a well recognized research firm)
"There has been a 92% increase in the number of unchurched Americans in the last thirteen years. In 1991there were 39 million unchurched Americans compared with 75 million currently. (2004)
Those numbers speak clearly to the failure of the church to demonstrate relevance to people's lives. If a thing is relevant to life, people don't discard it. If it is irrelevant, then people drop it. People are dropping/leaving the church. They don't see it as relevant to their lives. The message of the gospel is relevant, but the mechanism for delivering it is. The church has become an activity, not a community of believers.
So no, people will not come "if the ultimate goal of the service is "worship." Mainstream churches throughout the US have been (and are still) doing that, and people are leaving the church in droves.
Which brings me to the question that I want you to think about: If "church" as it is currently being practiced (what we as Christ followers do and how we live) doesn't intrigue those outside of the church, WHY NOT? That's the rub isn't it?
My answer to that is that what we do and how we live is simply being judged as irrelevant. It doesn't seem to work to those who are outside looking in, and for many of those who have left the church as well.
Information like this should require us to examine what we are doing that no longer makes us relevant to the needs of the people around us. I mean, we know the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is highly relevant. It is life to those that are perishing.
So if we are unwilling to question our methods and practices, and we just keep plodding along, doing the same ol' thing, then we can't really say we are concerned for those that are not Christ followers can we? That kind of attitude creates barriers to sharing our faith, and Christ's life demonstrates the model of life that builds bridges and reaches out to be inclusive of them. Doesn't scripture show Christ going to where the people were? He met them where they were at, both physically and spiritually.
Which begs another question: How many NEW converts have you seen added to God's kingdom based on what you are currently doing in church? And I don't mean church membership transfers. While sharing the gospel is not the only thing we are called to be/do as christians, it certainly is an illuminating question to ask when talking about church and how we practice our faith, isn't it?
Speaking from my own experience, most of those who defend the Sunday worship service as currently practiced are usually more concerned about their needs than the needs of others. They are seldom concerned with how best to share the gospel of Christ.
I love what Rob Bell wrote in Velvet Elvis when he compared our beliefs to a painter. There are those that love the painter and the painting. They follow everything the painter says. Then the painter dies- and they either keep painting or put the painting in the attic. I don't think we are trying to paint a new picture, we are just painting the same picture in a different way. Sorry I can't recall the exact quote.
Interestingly enough, all the things that Anon. said...
The things I like about the established church are:
1. Gathering with other believers.
2. Singing praise and worship.
3. Praying together.
4. Giving financially to the Lord and His Kingdom.
5. Hearing Biblical messages and teaching.
6. Seeing people get saved and discipled.
These are all things I experience in the Springs. In addition, I have an inner peace that comes from knowing I have a 'family' that will care for me and I can care for.
I agree, we are all so "self" centered when we need to be Jesus centered. Isn't that what it means to make Him 'Lord of your life'?
All of you have made some significant comments regarding this topic and I have appreciate your willingness to jump into the conversation. That being said, I think that we jumped a bit off-course and so as much as possible, I'm closing this post. The next two posts, Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 both take the root issue of my original question deeper. Let's move forward from here.
Post a Comment